The “fear of the Lord” is one of those Old Testament concepts people don’t think they need anymore. That was for those under the Law who had to fear the earth swallowing them. Today we’re under grace and God is love now, not fear.
So goes the rationale. I beg to differ.
The God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT. God is still God and we are still people. Fearing the Lord is inherent in peopledom. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, which may explain why the Church is so dumb today.
Isaiah speaks of Jesus Christ and prophecies concerning the character of Christ that “the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.”
Jesus Christ will fear the Lord! The fear of the Lord is what played into Christ’s perfect obedience to His Father. Furthermore, if believers today are “in Christ” and are to have the same mind as Christ, then fearing the Lord would be automatic.
When John says “perfect love casts out fear,” he’s not talking about removing fear of the Lord, he’s talking about removing all other fears of anything because of God’s great love in Christ.
Don’t be dumb; fear the Lord.
anti-itch meditation 
Fear = Respect
Fear = Honor
Fear = Submission
Fear = Beholding His glory
Fear = Seeing His goodness compared to my sinfulness
Sinners fearing the Lord makes sense, but to know that the sinless One, Jesus Christ Himself, feared the Lord, I’m guessing we have no idea how much we should fear.
I think you guess right brother! Yeah in that context, someone who is sinless acknowledging fear of the Lord, wow.
Jeff,
Off the subject, I’m trying to recall, I believe you do not hold to a pretrib rapture right? Myself I hold to the rapture at the second coming. What is your understanding as to the timing of the rapture?
Premill doesn’t mean pretrib to me, but I guess I’m not with the majority on this one. Someone asked me if I could recommend some writers who are premill and not pretrib.
Actually I am a pre-trib rapture kind of guy.
weirdo (heh)
Jeff,
How do read these verses? To me it points to us being here on earth to witness the rise of the anti- Christ, thus being present for part of the tribulation
2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Well, Paul, I read them with my eyes. You track along from left to right. Each letter makes a different sound and when you put those sounds together they make words. You memorize the words and their meanings. Once you group words and their meanings together, you understand the point that is being made in each sentence.
Sorry.
I would drop down to verse 7 and 8, one is restraining the revelation of the antichrist, I see the restrainer as being the Holy Spirit embodied in the Church. Once that restraint is removed the antichrist can be revealed.
Paul’s basic point is “don’t worry about people freaking you out about End Times stuff because it isn’t.” Seems to me the only way he can say that is if we don’t have to be freaked out about it and the reason we arent’ is because we won’t be here.
That being said, I think Paul also knows there are many in the church, especially those susceptible to listening to alarmist doctrines, who will not be removed in the rapture, false professors of faith, who should then, when they see the antichrist revealed, begin to freak out.
Okay I can see your point of view Jeff, that makes sense thanks for the explaination.
Fellows,
I hope I’m not hi-jacking this (but you posted publicly).
Do you not see the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2 in the rise of the papacy in the christian church? This is also clearly laid out in Daniel 7 with the rise of the little horn (right after Rome, the fourth world power), who would persecute the saints. It is also clearly shown in the outline of the 7 churches (which I take to be 7 periods in the history of the church). By the 4th church, Thyatira, Jezebel was living and reigning in the church.
Do you think God would have skipped by this whole period of apostasy, persecution, and high-handed rebellion, all done in the name of Christ, without saying a word about it in the prophecies?
Have you read your (protestant) church fathers or commentators on these subjects? (like this one: http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/2-thessalonians-2-3.html)
I don’t think 2 Thessalonians has anything to do with catholicism specifically, but I can see an analogy, so to do I with all spirits of antichrist in the world.
Jeff,
I respect you, but an “I don’t think” is not very convincing. 2 Thess. is definitely linked with Daniel 7 (which is in turn linked to Rev. 13)…that is at least one of the main OT passages where Paul draws upon in his description of that antichristian power. Therefore, if we want to understand who 2 Thess. 2 is talking about, shouldn’t we start by grounding ourselves in a good understanding of Daniel 7?
Prophecy is an “achilles heel” in modern Christianity. It is embarassing, when we consider that the book of Daniel carries the injunction that “the wise will understand” (12:10), and Revelation begins with a blessing, “blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written.” (1:3).
Where are the “wise”? I thought there was a promise that Christ was the “wisdom of God” to us who believe. Why then do we not understand these things? Why is there so little agreement, and some churches even shun to deal with the books of prophecy, considering them the food of fanaticism?
Furthermore, if the gospel is the revelation of Jesus Christ (Rom 1:16,17), and the last book of the Bible is also the “revelation of Jesus Christ”, how is it that we think we can understand the first, but can’t understand the second?
I’m speaking more general now, as pertaining to the Christian churches, and not to you in particular (seeing as I don’t really know what you base your views upon).
I think we can understand prophecy and quite well based on Daniel, Revelation, Matthew, 1 and 2 Thessalonians and many other places. I like the idea that the 7 churches of Revelation are recounting Church History, I’m fine with that one.
My “I don’t think so” was not saying I don’t know what I think, it was saying I don’t think 2 Thessalonians is talking about past, Catholic history, however past Catholic history may indeed be an example of what Paul, John and Daniel are talking about. I am not going to say “I don’t feel so” so I am only left with “I don’t think so.”
Frank,
I tried to go to the link you provided
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/2-thessalonians-2-3.html) but the page in not available fo some reason. I would have to agree with Jeff, to my understanding I don’t believe the man of lawlessness will ascend from the current papacy of catholicism, but perhaps a hybrid of of some sort with a present day new age self awareness.
What your understanding?
Paul,
You just need to take that bracket “)” off the end of the link, and it will work.
My understanding is that in order to get a good grasp of the final battle, we need to establish what are the principles and methods of those involved in the battle.
On one side is Christ, who battles with truth and righteousness. On the other side is Satan, who uses lies and deception to misrepresent God…thus gaining sympathy for his rebellion.
It is not a contest of who is physically stronger. God wins the battle by convincing people that His way is the only true way of life. After the final judgment, “every knee will bow” and confess this truth, even though not all who bow will be saved.
Jesus gained a key victory in this battle when He died on the cross. This is very contrary to the way that human conquerors would win battles. But it revealed the character of God as love and self-sacrifice, and revealed Satan’s character as that of a murderer and liar.
Not all saw that however, which is why we are still here. The “seed of the woman who should bruise the serpents head” is Christ, but also Christ in His church, as Paul testifies in Rom. 16:20. This “bruising” via the church will be similar to the bruising that Jesus did during His life and especially by His death: it is first a declaration of the gospel, then a demonstration of it.
This can be confirmed by many scriptures, but my post will get too long. A few hints: compare Christ’s words “It is finished” with the words of Rev. 16:17. Compare also Isa. 63:1-6 with Rev. 14:17-20.
As for antichrist, I agree that it will not be primarily the papacy. But Satan uses deception and what is more deceptive than to appear as Christ? Therefore, I think the manifestation of antichrist in our day will be primarily through a union of churches (with other religions and spiritualism all mixed in), depending upon the power of governments instead of the power of the Lord Jesus (as in Rev. 18: the woman rides upon the beast).
One Google article I can’t get around is titled “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy.” But a really shocking one is titled “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”
Rachel